Talk:Ragdoll

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video request[edit]

I request a photo or video clip of a ragdoll going limp and relaxed when picked up.

Dodobird. These cats are not pain resistant[edit]

I've noticed You've edited the article severely and I don't agree with at least 1 of your changes.

I suppose You like the current desription of Ragdoll saying that these cats don't feel pain etc. but removing entire paragraph with its sources explaining how these ridiculous claims originated seems immature to me. It looks like your motivation is to maintain the "supercat reputation" of Your Binka on Wikipedia :)

here's the paragraph You've deleted

Ragdolls were created in the 1960s by Ann Baker, a Persian cat breeder in California. The name "Ragdoll" is derived from Baker's belief that her cat Josephine was genetically manipulated during treatment at the local university, after she was run over by a car, resulting in future Ragdolls being relaxed when picked up, and unable to feel pain [3]. Naturally, Ragdolls experience pain in the same way as any other breed of cat.[1]

78.131.137.50 (talk) 04:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, the article does not state that Ragdolls don't feel pain. If you look in the section on temperament, it says that "The defining characteristic of the original Ragdoll is its docile temperament and tendency to go limp when picked up, thought to be due to a genetic mutation or passed down from the Persian and Birman breed. This has led to the myth that Ragdolls are pain-resistant". Does that address your concern? --Dodo bird (talk) 05:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
It's a shame that I've started rewriting this article in these circumstances. It really needed cleaning but now I've got You as a potential revert-war-enemy :( It was not my intention. Sources in "temperament" section can't be verified. Currently it ascribes cat's temperament to a single genetic mutation(sic!). I've deleted it and instead I included citations from breed standards regarding temperament in the intro as well as a mention of "lipmpness" that You seem to care for the most. The latter one is my attempt to reach compromise with You. Preparing this edit took me some effort. Even though it's substantially correct in every way and backed with sources, I feel You won't like it because facts and sources I included may weaken the enthusiastic tone of the article in Your perception.78.131.137.50 (talk) 07:25, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi again. The article does not ascribe the temperament to a single genetic mutation, it says "thought to be due to a genetic mutation or passed down from the Persian and Birman breed". This is backed by the reference to Tabor. I fixed your issue with verifiability by modifying the references to link to preview pages so you can check them out yourself. Limpness (aka floppiness) is mentioned in both references.
The temperament section you deleted has been restored and your additions based on breed standards have been moved here. I scraped the "Naming" section as all relevant information there is already in the article. Besides it uses a breeder's website which is unlikely to meet the WP:RS standard. I don't understand your complaints about "enthusiastic tone".--Dodo bird (talk) 12:30, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
These sources [2] that you're questiong are consistent with already existing sources here [3]
Look yourself:
"According to Baker, in the early 1960s the Ragdoll’s foundation cat, a longhaired white Angora look-alike named Josephine, was taken to a laboratory after being hit by a car, where she was genetically altered as part of a secret government experiment. All subsequent offspring possessed the same characteristics: non-matting fur, docile nature, larger size, imperviousness to pain and the tendency to go limp like a child’s rag doll—thus the breed's name. However, this couldn’t be confirmed, Baker claimed, since the government suppressed all the evidence." .[3] That's why I'm restoring the section.
Hmmm... Dodo, this discussion is getting really embarrasing. You invoke WP:RS (to be proven wrong) and at the same time You cite other sources very creatively. I've just went through these links [4] [5] and they say nothing You wrote in the article
For example here's Your edit "-The defining characteristic of the original Ragdoll is its docile temperament and tendency to go limp when picked up, thought to be due to a genetic mutation or passed down from the Persian and Birman breed".
The book doesn't say anything like it. It only mentions "genetic mutations" just to refute it as a myth:
Ragdoll Cat. The Ragdoll Cat is an American breed developed during the 1960s from a line of white and pointed Bitman and Burmese cats. It is a large, heavily boned and muscular cat that is always colorpointed. Accepted colors include (...). The Ragdoll received it name because of its relaxed, gentle and lethrgic nature. It is reputedly said to go limp when held, thus appearing to be completely floppy like a feline rag-doll. The controversy of this breed lies in assumption by some that the cat's laid-back nature means that it will not respond to pain. There is no support for this claim, however, and it appears that the Ragdoll does not carry any type of genetic mutation causing it to be unable to escape from pain or cruel treatment [6]
Note how this confirms statements in the reference You've deleted as "unreliable" (already confirmed here[3]).
Let's clear the atmospheare. We both know where you're going. You want the limpness thing to be described as an undeniable fact and delete any mention of how it originated from a crazywoman who believed her cats were genetically manipulated, claimed she crossbred them with other species etc. You're in a lost position because there's too many sources describing this. Though it is not my intention to remove the mention of limpness because there are sorces for them too and sooner or later someone will addd it back eventually.
I'm going to reedit the intro only with sourced citations. Current claims are weasel words. In temperament section I'll put only exact citation too. Section "the name ragdoll" will gain more sources.78.131.137.50 (talk) 01:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Did you read the Tabor reference. I used Tabor for the point about breeders breeding away from extreme docility and how it is likely derived from a mutation or from crossing with other docile breeds. These two key points are not present in your version. The Case reference is for the point about pain resistance being a myth, which we both agree. Case does not contradict Tabor. Don't confuse the inability to feel pain with limpness/floppiness. I think we agree on the general temperament of the breed, although you seem to want them to be presented in the form of "according to X" rather than as a generalization. I think we have enough third party sources to make that unnecessary but it's not a big deal.

I don't understand why you insist on the section on naming. The sentence in the lead that says "The name "Ragdoll" is derived from the tendency of individuals from the original breeding stock to go limp and relaxed when picked up." is more than adequate. The stuff about Baker's claim of genetic manipulation is already present in the History section.

After she recovered, her next litter produced exceptionally friendly kittens, which Baker claimed, was a result of a secret government genetic experiment on Josephine(a claim rejected by genetics experts[5]).

The temperament section addresses the myth that Ragdolls are pain resistant. What important information is in that section that is not already present in the article elsewhere? --Dodo bird (talk) 05:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC) Please note that I left a comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cats#Ragdoll requesting third party opinion.--Dodo bird (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Tabor is there. It's higher than before.
Dodobird, breeder Ann Baker had bad reputation because of her 2 ridiculous beliefs[7] [3] :
  • A that Ragdolls were pain resistant because of genetic manipulation done to her cat as part of a secret government experiment
  • B that her cats go limp in human's hands because of the same genetic manipulation
Your edits delete the information on B. The unsourced opening sentence You proposed presented Baker's B belief as a fact without explaing how it originated. I mean this one :
"The name "Ragdoll" is derived from the tendency of individuals from the original breeding stock to go limp and relaxed when picked up."
I'm not insisting on leaving section "The name Ragdoll" exactly as it is. I'm insisting on leaving information B with its sources visible and clear in the article. As for the intro and Temperamnet section these 2 now contain only sourced material without "I love my cat" rubbish. They gained on our polemics. Third party could help to make the History section more tidy. I hope he/she won't be a sock though78.131.137.50 (talk) 06:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

1. Baker claiming genetic manipulation changed Josephine, that is one ridiculous belief, not two. No need for separate section. 2. Do not confuse the breed's limpness/floppiness (a factual generalization) with Baker's belief that those traits were a result of genetic manipulation. 3. The sentence in the lead was not sourced because the exact same info was already sourced in the temperament section. Tabor states clearly that Baker's Ragdoll are "undeniably floppy". 4. There are easier ways to improve an article. You can give yourself a pat on the back for making it not so. 5. Don't cut and paste from the reference. 6. Try to spell the authors name right.--Dodo bird (talk) 16:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it should be made clearer that Baker's claims are impossible, while leaving her story intact as a fictional account? - Smoke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.235.211 (talk) 14:14, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ http://ragdoll.co.za/About%20Ragdolls.html
  2. ^ [1]CRR's website - section describing history of the breed
  3. ^ a b c d Ragdoll J. Anne Helgren (2006). Telemark Productions.
  4. ^ The Cat: Its Behavior, Nutrition & Health Linda P. Case, Kerry Helms, Bruce Macallister (2003). P 31.
  5. ^ Understanding Cat Behavior: The Complete Feline Problem Solver Roger Tabor (2003). P 33.
  6. ^ The Cat: Its Behavior, Nutrition & Health Linda P. Case, Kerry Helms, Bruce Macallister (2003). P 31.
  7. ^ [2]CRR's website - section describing history of the breed

Ragdoll page editors - please read![edit]

May I suggest that the page be changed to put the "genetically engineered" claim more clearly. I feel I have wasted time investigating this Ann Baker and her unusual beliefs. I thought the page had been vandalised when I first saw this entry but I sought to find the truth before reverting anyone's edits!

I read this at the Iams website given as a reference.

"According to Baker, in the early 1960s the Ragdoll’s foundation cat, a longhaired white Angora look-alike named Josephine, was taken to a laboratory after being hit by a car, where she was genetically altered as part of a secret government experiment. All subsequent offspring possessed the same characteristics: non-matting fur, docile nature, larger size, imperviousness to pain and the tendency to go limp like a child’s rag doll—thus the breed's name. However, this couldn’t be confirmed, Baker claimed, since the government suppressed all the evidence. i suck hard-ass While most well-balanced people scoff at this conspiracy theory, and genetics experts say that this kind of genetic engineering wasn’t even possible in the 1960s, this story and other Twilight Zone tales uttered by Baker have plagued Ragdoll breeders for years, since cat associations found it hard to take the breed seriously. According to the Ragdoll Connection Network, a group committed to promoting the breed, Baker’s claims became even more strange and hard to believe as time went on. For example, they say she claimed Ragdolls were crossbred with skunks to improve the cats’ tails and also represented a link between humans and extraterrestrials"

If all this X-Files/conspiracy theory stuff is from one person who offers no evidence for her assertions, then please may the page reflect this emphatically.

Respectfully Yours... --88.107.199.68 (talk) 23:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Like it or not, breeders love to spread crazy stories about their cats. Actually, this paragraph was clarifying how some absurd claims regarding Ragdolls originated. If You delete this, some kid will eventually paste in more of Baker's stories as facts.
I agree that Wikipedia should be strictly scientific but You have too many cattery owners treating Wikiarticles as their personal websites for breed promotion78.131.137.50 (talk) 04:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Yes, for the reason you state I can see that perhaps some reference to Baker's unusual belief fills a void that might otherwise have something much worse. 88.107.199.68 (talk) 18:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Common Health Problems[edit]

This section is next to useless. Can we either clean this up or cut it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.198.206 (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Mean Ragdoll[edit]

This message was left on my talk page. Discussion about the article is best done on the article talk page so I have copied that message here.

I reverted your edit - see WP:LINKROT - Do not delete factual information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer. WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online.

—  Ronhjones  (Talk) 21:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

IP editor 75.109.142.137 had made two sequential edits to this article which included new factual information. The cited source for this new factual information was a reference to a dead link. It was then and is now my opinion that adding new factual information with a dead link source is the same as adding unsourced information and so may be challenged.

I have again deleted IP editor's addition.

--Trappist the monk (talk) 12:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Kitten growth and maturity[edit]

Could someone who knows Ragdolls add a sentence in the "Physical characteristics" section on how long it takes kittens to mature? I know the large breeds often take two to three years to achieve adulthood which often comes as a surprise to people who think all male cats are mature at one year. Thank you. Rissa -- bossy, obsessive/compulsive copy editor 03:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay. We have some contidictory information.[edit]

"One study utilizing Swedish insurance data showed that of the common cat breeds, the Ragdoll and Siamese have the lowest survival rate. They live 15 to 25 years." An average closer to 20 years is HIGH for cats by breed. 15-25 isn't a low range for cats. Even just 15 as a baseline.

The Swedish data suggests the opposite supposedly. And frankly sounds false unless a local factor is a major part. This potion of the article has major uneven footing. Honestly seems like spot-data involving a very narrow genetic grouping, since I can't imagine Sweden having huge genetic breadth on a California centric breed. And if said IS Sweden Centric. It doesn't belong here. And we have no citation for this? Probably should be purged either way. And doubly so if one cannot be provided.

Founder?[edit]

"Around 45% of the genes come from only one founder, Ann Baker."

I think that sentence could be worded a bit more accurately. 27.33.121.123 (talk) 12:33, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Adding to the Rag doll page[edit]

I would love to add to this rag doll page that Grumpy Cat is listed as a possible Ragdoll and that he shares the same characteristics as a traditional Ragdoll. Grumpy cat was an internet icon and I feel as though even though he was not pure bred he was a good representation of the breed. __Cebell1 (talk) 23:49, 5 October 2019 (UTC)